Curse

Age · Oct 24, 2006, 04:39 AM // 04:39

I did test this and it does work apparently neat trick.

Cherno · Oct 24, 2006, 05:28 AM // 05:28

Another reason to use the stolen hex is to make enemy monks spend energy to remove it. They will likely not know that the cast hex isn't at full power.

Y.T. · Oct 24, 2006, 07:25 AM // 07:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

I don't believe that this is done in normal practice and I don't think you can do this with I hex or R hex recast the hex.

yes u can - f/ex u can recast ss that u just i-hexed off the teammate, but u'll waste 15e for hex that lasts 5sec and does no dam at all.... not mentioning the casting time of cos

however u can steal scourge healing if u're smiter and cast ot bac, it can be funny, but in 90% of situations its a complete waste

Swinging Fists · Oct 24, 2006, 08:31 AM // 08:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minus Sign

Diverting Diversion is fun

There are several skills that can prove useful even at 0 attributes. Its up to the BProt to use his judgment as to whether his team will need that energy for a heal of if he should drop a little somethingsomethin into the offensive. many elite hexes are well worth the cost due to their enhanced effects. many skills have unconditional uptime or an effect outside the attribute (ex; cast guilt or shame to wreak a little extra havoc on spell spammers with a poor mans interupt).

Knowing what to use and when to use it is part of being a BoonProt. @OP: I suggest you start learning instead of dismissing a tactic out of hand.

Your thoughts are welcome, just as everyone else's, but your suggestion is, well, somewhat confusing. Why do you think I created the thread? Why are we here, if not to learn from each other ? I stated my opinion and I asked for others'.

The truth itself · Oct 24, 2006, 08:35 AM // 08:35

There is only one time to cast the hexes you stole with revealed / inspired hex, and that time is when you have diversion on you and you need to cast.

For PvE > You shouldn't be using the boon prot build for pve, it's terrible.

fenix · Oct 24, 2006, 08:39 AM // 08:39

Boon Prot isn't terrible in PvE, it's over-powered. When I run it in PvE I end up healing for too much, so I just stand around and spam Signet of Devotion most of the time. It's much better at healing than 99% of the PvE monk builds that people try (and fail at)

Phoebe · Oct 24, 2006, 12:19 PM // 12:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by talon

Boon Prot isn't terrible in PvE, it's over-powered. When I run it in PvE I end up healing for too much, so I just stand around and spam Signet of Devotion most of the time.

That's exactly why Boon Prot is terrible in PvE.
Sure you can heal for alot really fast, but you're just going to run yourself out of energy.
A standard healing builds can heal alot more than a Boon Prots in PvE.

Boon Prots are only good vs. spike damage (1/4s heals), very good vs. interrupts (1/4s casts) and very good vs. hexes/conditions (CoP, inspired hex & mend ailment). All those things are golden in PvP but generally useless in PvE because the AI can't spike well, the AI will either not attack the monk or will still be able to interrupt 1/4s cast, and the AI can't use hexes and conditions well if they use them on the monk at all.

Scourgey · Oct 24, 2006, 12:27 PM // 12:27

It is a bad idea to cast hexes back on the enemy team, a waste of energy as others have said. If your team does not have many hexes, it will most likely help enemy teams if they have inspired hex/revealed hex (most monks do usually).

It does depend on the situation, but in the vast majority of the cases, I can safely say it would be a bad idea to cast a hex (particularly one that isn't linked to any attributes) back at an enemy team.

Titan Chrae · Oct 24, 2006, 01:01 PM // 13:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phoebe

That's exactly why Boon Prot is terrible in PvE.

Whoa! Slow down there sparky. You obviously dont have a clue how to run a Boon Protect in PvE. I get compliments on my healing in almost every pug. They don't even know I have no points in healing.

Quote:

Sure you can heal for alot really fast, but you're just going to run yourself out of energy.
A standard healing builds can heal alot more than a Boon Prots in PvE.

I never have any energy problems. Divines Spirit at 16 DF takes care of all of my energy needs. The only heal I have other than bonus heals is Blessed Light. Boons are not there to heal (Although a well placed protect spell can heal for over 0ver 250 points) They mitigate damage in the first place so healing isn't an issue. The little damage the party does take can be reversed or topped off with a condition/hex removal heal bonus.

Quote:

Boon Prots are only good vs. spike damage (1/4s heals), very good vs. interrupts (1/4s casts) and very good vs. hexes/conditions (CoP, inspired hex & mend ailment). All those things are golden in PvP but generally useless in PvE because the AI can't spike well, the AI will either not attack the monk or will still be able to interrupt 1/4s cast, and the AI can't use hexes and conditions well if they use them on the monk at all.

[/quote]

I disagree. Boon Protect is greater than Heal in PvE in most situations and especially when Hex and Conditions are prevelent. I used to run a Heal Monk so I know the differences between the two... The only place I consistently run Heal now is in the Deep and I can even get by with my normal Boon Protect build there. It is just easier with high Heal for Heal Party.

Phoebe · Oct 24, 2006, 02:02 PM // 14:02

Just to make things clear, a Boon Prot is a standard PvP build.
Protection builds ARE good in PvE, and Divine Boon is an useful skill for Protection monks, but simply bringing Divine Boon on a Protection monk doesn't make a Boon Prot.

Aera Lure · Oct 24, 2006, 02:09 PM // 14:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phoebe

That's exactly why Boon Prot is terrible in PvE.
Sure you can heal for alot really fast, but you're just going to run yourself out of energy.
A standard healing builds can heal alot more than a Boon Prots in PvE.

I dont run out of energy at all playing a boon prot in PvE. It in fact does really well and better than most other healing builds. I was the lone monk for a team of 4 in Abaddon bonus after a few players left in a pug, as well as also getting Gyala masters under the same conditions. There are times of stress, yes, and there are some instances I need to swap to the high energy set to ride a wave, but this is true of any monking circumstance.

CHUIU · Oct 24, 2006, 05:21 PM // 17:21

Quote:

PvP tip: If you can spare the Energy and time, attempt to recast a Hex you've removed with Inspired Hex. When fighting an easy team that doesn't do much damage, it gives Monks something to do besides minimal healing.

Translated to English:

Quote:

If you're facing noobs, have fun with them.

Minus Sign · Oct 24, 2006, 05:49 PM // 17:49

A rebuttal to OP: Don’t forget, you call this tactic both a “disservice to the community” and “terrible advice”. All this leads me to believe that you’ve never done it and that you had made up your mind going into this thread that it was and would remain poor use of a skill. So:

Quote:

Originally Posted by me

@OP: I suggest you start learning instead of dismissing a tactic out of hand.

I’m glad to hear that you are more open minded than your OP makes you sound but I stand by my advice. Learn this tactic and learn it well. The benefits to using IHex and RHex to their full potential are pointed out multiple times in this thread. Keep in mind, many hexes have the potential to REDUCE damage as much as some prot spells while they are up by slowing attack, increasing miss % with attacks, increasing %chance for interrupts (shutdown a skill=what damage?), or snaring targets. And all this in turn can help you help your team kill targets more quickly. Dead players deal less damage and players casting a 3 second sig are sitting ducks.

About "healing": an E/Mo Heal Party spammer will outheal a monk when it comes to keeping your teams red bars up in most forms of PvP. Monks exist in the PvP game to counter conditions/hexes, reduce damage and combat spikes/single target pressure. It’s a very different role than most players see and use them for. Frankly, if BoonProts needed their energy to heal their team then they need to swap to Healing Prayers now and save themselves some trouble.

Why BoonProt: Players Boon Protect for 2 reasons primarily: it has the single best self healing in the game (meaning that a Boon Protector can keep himself alive with much less aid from his duo) and it has excellent skills for combatting spikes. All this boils down to BoonProts being solid single target healers...but horrible with a group. This is good for both facets of the game. Since most PvE warriors should take and hold agro for the majority of the game, the Boon Prot is an effective support class for good PvE groups that show restraint and solid tactics. For PvP, most of their skills are not easily susceptible to interupt. That means your prot spells go through to counter spikes even when an interupter is sitting on your head.

The build itself is largly outdated now (something I'm not happy about; but its a fact that changes in skills and counters to the build are rampant in PvP today) and most players will be shifting even further away from the staple BP when Nightfalls skills hit the game in a few days. So while I've enjoyed this discussion as a simple exercise, the entire point is somewhat moot.

Aejorii · Oct 24, 2006, 06:11 PM // 18:11

Well if you're rolling their team, why not have a little fun with deep freeze. >.>

Oh, and Spirit of Failure is awesome to toss back at their warriors - that is if they don't remove it, you will get more than 10 energy in that span of 30 seconds.. Ofcourse that is if you have high inspiration.

Swinging Fists · Oct 24, 2006, 06:39 PM // 18:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minus Sign

A rebuttal to OP: Don’t forget, you call this tactic both a “disservice to the community” and “terrible advice”. All this leads me to believe that you’ve never done it and that you had made up your mind going into this thread that it was and would remain poor use of a skill. So: I’m glad to hear that you are more open minded than your OP makes you sound but I stand by my advice. Learn this tactic and learn it well. The benefits to using IHex and RHex to their full potential are pointed out multiple times in this thread. Keep in mind, many hexes have the potential to REDUCE damage as much as some prot spells while they are up by slowing attack, increasing miss % with attacks, increasing %chance for interrupts (shutdown a skill=what damage?), or snaring targets. And all this in turn can help you help your team kill targets more quickly. Dead players deal less damage and players casting a 3 second sig are sitting ducks.

This is what I said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swinging Fists

I think this is terrible advice, since a monk will likely not have the attributes to support its use, and a monk should simply not waste the energy or take the time to stand still to cast. I think teaching such a tip to the general masses, especially to those who could learn from an article discussing how to beat the Zaishen is a terrible disservice to the community.

Maybe it didn't come through clear enough, but what I was trying to say was that I feel this advice will be taken by new players (see "especially to those who could learn from an article discussing how to beat the Zaishen") who really don't take into account the issues discussed in this thread. My point was that this is not something I think should be taught to new players, as it is GENERALLY a bad idea. Yes, there are some limited, good occasions to recast the hex, but they are rare. You mention that many hexes are able to do many good things, such as reduce damage, slowing attacks, increase miss %. Yes. But how long do they last and what is the miss % when you have 0 points in their attribute ? Not very. There are others, like Deep Freeze, that has a 10% snare regardless of Water Magic level, but that costs a whopping 25e. Also, when you mention "shutdown a skill", I am assuming you are talking about removing Diversion from a teammate, because you can't use Inspired Hex to remove it from yourself. Anyways, my point is, and it has been discussed by various posts in this thread, that it takes experience to be able to make good decisions about whether to recast a stolen hex, and this article is directed at an audience without that knowledge. So, no, I haven't dismissed the idea of recasting it out of hand, but I do believe it is terrible advice to its intended audience, and is thus a disservice to the community to give such advice with only the caveat that you have excess energy and your team isn't taking damage. Parts, which, in my opinion, will be lost on the new monk looking to do damage because it's fun.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minus Sign

The build itself is largly outdated now (something I'm not happy about; but its a fact that changes in skills and counters to the build are rampant in PvP today) and most players will be shifting even further away from the staple BP when Nightfalls skills hit the game in a few days. So while I've enjoyed this discussion as a simple exercise, the entire point is somewhat moot.

Again, you and other experienced players consider this build outdated, but guess what, ANet just put this article on their website, so people who don't know any better will use it. It's not that moot.

BTW, there have been many posts with various good times when recasting can be a good idea - good info.

lennymon · Oct 24, 2006, 08:11 PM // 20:11

check -this- out:
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Image:S..._Illusions.jpg
too bad its elite but it's gonna rock when my mesmer reveals SS and chucks it back at 16. think of the ele hexes, necro hexes etc that this will combo with nicely for secondary prof. I know its unlikely that a boon prot is gonna run this instead of MoR, but still the concept of chucking back hexes is there.
If the boon prot is under heavy edenial, casting a useless hex is roughly equal in my eyes as hiding the energy with weapon swap... yes, the total energy is lower, but most hexes will at least have a few seconds of usefullness.

pigdestroyer · Oct 24, 2006, 08:15 PM // 20:15

I dunno, maybe against a scrubby team yes..

The truth itself · Oct 24, 2006, 09:10 PM // 21:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by lennymon

....If the boon prot is under heavy edenial, casting a useless hex is roughly equal in my eyes as hiding the energy with weapon swap... yes, the total energy is lower, but most hexes will at least have a few seconds of usefullness.

No?

Hiding energy with focus swaps will get you the energy back when switching back to the primary set.

Casting a useless hex, may add some pressure to the other team, but it's not helping against e-denial.

lennymon · Oct 24, 2006, 11:06 PM // 23:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by The truth itself

No?

Hiding energy with focus swaps will get you the energy back when switching back to the primary set.

Casting a useless hex, may add some pressure to the other team, but it's not helping against e-denial.

Right, so, like I said, its a roughly equal tradeoff, on one hand you hide the energy and can get it back, and on the other you use the energy to help the team... obviously situational to the hex in question and how you use it, but where's your doubt about the equivalence?

Edit(later): I just did noticed a possible point to clarify - from my last post I had stated that throwing captured hex or hiding energy could be equivalent value under edenial.... but from your (The truth itself) response I think I need to make it clear that I don't mean casting a hex helps you deal with edenial... I mean casting the hex could help the team while you are under edenial. Its my argument that if cast correctly, even a less usefull hex *can* do your team as much good as hiding your energy with a swap.

Minus Sign · Oct 24, 2006, 11:38 PM // 23:38

Its GENERALLY a bad idea to let the general masses monk for you in the first place, now ain't it? If the remainder of your posts are going to be "thats what I said, but its not what I meant", then I suggest you take a closer look at how people interpret the english language. Most folks around here listen to what you have to say and don't search for hidden meanings in the syntax.

And so you know: based on your rebuttal, what you "meant" is NOT what you said in your OP. You're twisting the meaning of your OP widly just because you left yourself one word for wriggle room. Be grateful you posted this in Riverside. Put it in the PvP sections and you wouldn't just be dealing with me right now; the majority of the community would be eating you for breakfast for bashing a tactic that has long been accepted practice in-game.

I'm really starting to hate people pulling the "in general" card out to defend themselves. @all: say what you mean and defend it or accept you were wrong. Don't flip flop and bounce around your words; stand behind them for crissake or keep you mouth closed.

Also: if you want the %slow attack rate, the %chance to miss, etc of every hex in the game, go to guildwki and get cracking. Don't ask me to do your homework for you. Generally: the best way to learn something is through expierience. Its not a diservice to anyone to tell them "hey; learn about this because you may need to use it someday". Will they suck while they are learning? Yup. But they will learn if they want to and they'll become stronger for the practice.

Let me be perfectly clear. I don't think you're that bad a monk. Rough around the edges and still has a lot to learn, but thats not a bad monk imo.

I think you were a bad BoonProt if you're just now jumping into a discussion over the skilluse of a build that has been used for nearly a year and now has much reduced value in PvP; a build that has been discussed ad nausium.